opinions please

[froggorino]

in a nutshell:

there are these two kids that dolan goes to school with that are total bullies. one of them has called dolan a bunch of hateful things like motherfucking bastard, etc. it is common for these kids to give a push and to say junk like, "you suck!" as they are just walking by other kids. dolan and his friends handle it pretty well, though. they ignore it for the most part, and do not seem to be scared -- at least they tell me they are not scared. on more than two occasions, one of these kids has beaten the shit out of another classmate and, to the outside eye, received no consequence. meaning he did not get suspended.
the other day he told dolan and a friend of his that he was gonna kill them. i drew the line here, cause that is total bullshit. been in contact with the school, who knew of the threat and never called me because they were "handling it." hmmmmph.
this morning i told the principal that dolan has been instructed to lay that kid out with as much blinding force as possible if it happens again. if they choose to suspend dolan, fuck it. i don't care. we'll take a vacation or something. i told the principal that, too.
i also told her shame on her for not calling the parents (me and this other kid's mom) and telling them that someone was threatening our kids safety. when i asked her if she knew where we lived in relation to the kid, she admitted she didn't, so she would have no idea if dolan and this kid might run into each other at the park down the street, putting dolan in danger of this threat being attempted or whatever.
i also told her that she was selling herself short and failing to pull in all her resources, cause i'll call that kid's parents in a heartbeat. i'll get involved up to the elbows -- not the least bit scared of that.
so i am wondering --

1. think it is okay to tell my kid to beat on another kid full force if it becomes necessary, and that the system consequences of this hold no weight or value in this family?
2. think the school should have called to tell me that someone threatened my son?

i'm really asking for insight and opinions from the peanut gallery.

thanks!

[ree-ree]

Yikes!
I never had to deal with something that awful.
My thought is he has to protect himself if the adults in charge are not going to do that for him(dicounting you, of course.) I would be afraid he would get hurt more than anything else, for sure. But obviously the bullies will continue to push the envelope and become more aggressive since there is no consequence for their behavior.
Unfortunatly, even if Dolan gets them off his back they'll go find a weaker target and it sucks the school isn't helping the situation. I guess if the bullies' parents don't care, it's difficult to stop what's going on.

And I think the school should have called you, but I'm not surprised they didn't. That really sucks because you lose faith and trust in the school and it's such a full part of your kid's life.

[ifihadahifi]

In the 1920's my grandfather walked to school everyday only to be met with by a bully that would rough him up and send him crying.
My great-grandfather tired of seeing his son being the subject of the daily beatings. So he gave my grandad an ultimatum - come home with another black-eye or bloodied lip and he'll get spanked.

The next day, my grandfather is walking to school and is cornered by the bully as usual. But this time, my grandfather remembers the threat that was greater than the one standing in front of him.

And with that in mind, he taught the bully a thing or two about a thing or two.

Fast forward to 1983. I've heard this story over and over. I'm in the 7th grade and I'm attending a private school where three boys develop the habit of hitting me on a daily basis. When I cry, the revel in it. When I get a black eye, they brag. When I cower, the feed on it.

My grandfather gets tired of seeing me come home in tears, shirts ripped, lip puffy and my spirit completely crushed. So he repeats the story one more time. And then puts that same burden on me.

One week later, I'm cornered by one of those same boys. He dots my eye and leaves it swollen and turning blue. I remember what my grandad told me and knew if I didnt' do something about about, I would pay the piper when I got home (I lived with my grandad at the time.)

"Here we go." I thought to myself.

And I found myself flying at this kid. For the one shiner he gave me, I have him two. I was beside myself with blind rage. I pulled the kid to the ground, sat on him and tenderized his face with a good dozen punches.

As I got up, I spotted the next bully who was standing, watching his friend get messed up. I took off after him and he started screaming a crying like the bitch he was about to become.

That's until Mrs. Miller jumped on my back and sent me to the prinicpal's office. When I got there, I received swats and was sent home.

What the hell, right? I still got spanked. But you should have seen my grandads grin when he heard the principal tell him what happened.

I still don't know what lesson was learned that day. I don't think things necessarily got better. There's no moral here. No happy ending. I ended up leaving that school and found a better situation elsewhere. But it is a fun story to tell.

So I'm not helping.

My son was getting bullied last year and we reported it to the school staff. I don't know if anything was done and the bullying continued. Instead of laying that heavy story on my son, I went and had lunch with him at school. The kids had assigned seats. And of course, the bully sits with my son.

So, as an icebreaker, I asked him "So, I hear you're the kid that's pushing Gibbon around." He didn't answer. So I just followed it up with "Cut it out." I also know the kid's parents and threatened to make a deal out of it if it continued. The bullying stopped.

I'm no professional. I don't give expert advise. Perhaps this is actually shitty advice, but I think it's stupid as hell that the school hasn't handled this properly. The bully needs to know that everyone knows what's going on and it's not going to be tolerated. If the school isn't going to handle it, they are just as guilty as the bully. And perhaps they need to be told to cut it out. Or maybe the principal needs her cheekbone metaphorically tagged.

Or cut out the middle man. Have Dolan point the kid out and then approach the kid and have a Come-to-Jesus meeting with him.

-ifihada-dangiwaslongwinded-hifi

[Dalya]

i think a punch is not out of line in certain situations, for sure. choose your battles definitely, but you need to stand up for yourself. i dont think theres anything wrong about teaching your child that. if someone threatens you (YOU not your pride) for gods sake defend yourself. it would be stupid not to.

the school is stupid for not having told you, as they could have been sued BIG TIME if something had happened to your son and you found out they had withheld this kind of info. it is pure stupidity probably mixed in with a little laziness.

i'd say youre totally in the right and the school needs to get the bully kid some kind of therapist, as suspending him probably wont do shit.

[Brightside]

My mum always told me that if someone hit my, I was well within my rights to hit them back twice as hard. Luckily I never had any physical bullying (just some verbal for being brainy).

I don't know about the situation in the US, but over here schools have to take bullying very seriously indeed. In fact, schools have to have guidelines about what they will do in situations such as this, as well as for other forms of misbehaviour.

Personally, I like hihfi's approach of talking to the kid and his parents. His parents might be absolutely horrified that their son has made such a serious threat. I'm also right behind you in having a go at the school- they certainly should have told you about the threat and should be dealing with this sort of behaviour in a constructive manner, instead of pretending it isn't happening.

I'm (hopefully) starting a PGCE course in September (that's a 1 year course to turn my degree into a primary school teaching qualification). I've got a couple of books already, I'll have a look and see if they offer any advice. I'll also ask the family- dad was a deputy head and both my mum and sister are primary school teachers. I bet that they've dealt wih a similar situation.

[aquaphase]

The school was totally negligent in not letting you know. The safety of your child is their responsibility when they have him, and keeping you in the dark about situations is utter bullshits.

The easiest thing to do would be to just ask the administrator who the best person would be for your legal counsel to contact. That usually brings the fear.

[Rebecca]

Since the principal is obviously not doing her job correctly, I think you should go directly to the principal's boss.. the superintendent or the school board or whatever. They are likely to take you a lot more seriously, since they are more concerned about possibly lawsuits, etc. Once when I was in middle school, I had a problem with a teacher, and nothing got resolved until my mom took it to the school board.

[Tracy]

Seeing/meeting the kid at school (or elsewhere) and letting him know you know who he is and have no problem talking to his parents may be enough. If he is abused or neglected at home that won't help, though, because they won't care.

As Dalya pointed out, the principal has put herself into a sticky spot if any harm came to Dolan or his friend at the bully's hands.

Much lip service is given to "zero tolerance" for bullying but as you see, it is uneven. Dolan shouldn't have to be put in the situation where he would need to lay out the bully. Children should not dread going to school out of fear of a bully.

Speak to the school counselor, he/she may have had other reports of problems with this child and may be able to do a program grade-level or school-wide concerning bullying and school violence, without being punitive. It's always better to be proactive.

Here is a resource page from the KidsHealth website:

Links

[froggorino]

The school was totally negligent in not letting you know. The safety of your child is their responsibility when they have him, and keeping you in the dark about situations is utter bullshits.

The easiest thing to do would be to just ask the administrator who the best person would be for your legal counsel to contact. That usually brings the fear.

ha! i told the principal that it this is the way the system/policies and procedures works, perhaps it should be investigated for change. and that investigation could be led very easily by my friend at channel 8 news, aided by our other good friend at the times dispatch.

i also asked her how she would feel if her kid was at my house and i was watching other boys hit him with sticks, whispering repremands through the steam billowing off of the cup of chai i was enjoying. further, what if this happened and i didnt even tell her? that would suck, eh? she was kinda speechless.

[mere1975]

First of all, I'm so glad that Dolan is telling you about these things. Some kids would be shy or embarrassed, but obviously, he knows he can come to you with the hard stuff.

= awesome

I think it's OK to tell your child to defend himself. I am not a fan of violence at all, but until now, he's done everything diplomatically and peacefully. . . so what do you do?

Shame on the school for not involving the parents directly.

I don't know.

- Mere "F all the bullies" 1975

[jbfromoc]

When my youngest sister was in 4th grade, a 5th grade boy used to spit on her every day in school. After numerous and pointless phone calls to the school and the boy's parents, my mother told me to "take care of it." I was in 8th grade at the time. The next day, me and two friends met the little punk as he stepped off the bus from school. We waited for the school bus to drive out of sight and then we "took care of it." Needless to say, his parents called the school, but they couldn't do anything about it since it didn't happen on school property. They also called the police, but they also couldn't do anything about it because there were no witnesses (and no admissions). His parents finally came to our house in person and told my mother how outrageous it was for her to allow three 8th grade bullies to beat up a 5th grader. My mother calmly responded: "The next time your son spits on my daughter, I can assure you that it will be FOUR boys." My sister never got spit on again... by anyone.

[brine]

the problem with these situations is that most of the time the bully's parents are neglictful don't give a fuck about what their kid does, especially in high school when they've given up on the kid. Sometimes they're even so afraid of their kid that they won't punish them to stay safe themselves. So talking to them does absolutely nothing. The other problem is that people freaking sue over the smallest things these days, so you have to be extremely careful about deciding when enough is enough. Any sort of non-physical bullying, no matter how severe and degrading it is, can end up hurting the victim even more of they retaliate with violence.

[froggorino]

update:

d's best friend's mom and i insisted on a conference with the administration, us, and the other kids' parents. that is happening monday.

also, i was at the school today picking up dolan a few minutes early and i talked to the teacher a bit about this when the class was out of the room at art. right as i was leaving, guess who came in --- shaquan, the "i'm gonna kill you" kid. i took him aside and talked to him a bit about being a good friend, and that he and keeshawn, the other kid, were not being good friends to each other by getting in trouble together and stuff. i also told him that his behavior was not going to be tolerated and told him to watch himself, cause i was watching him.

just then the teacher came out of the class and called me over. he told me that i should not be addressing the kid directly, and that i should wait until the meeting when his parents are there and stuff. i told him that was cool, that we were simply talking about what it means to be friends, and that i was finished anyway.

i understand his point. but i understand mine more.

[lennon]

having grown up in the inner city i dealt with these issues on a daily basis. the best way i found to take care of these situations was to always do my best to avoid those that instigated them. of course sometimes the situations are unavoidable. in those cases dolan has every right to protect himself. in fact if given the chance to protect himself he should beat the shit out of the kid. it sends a great message to other bullies that its just not worth the chance startin shit.

many of the teachers and principals dont really even care anymore. they are just there cuz its an easy paycheck for them. hell, i used to have teachers fall asleep in class. these days teachers have no power cuz society has given kids so much undeserved and unnecessary power. kids think they are grown and know everything when we know they dont have a clue. and of course for every kid that has such a sense of entitlement there is always a parent right there there to not only give the kid whatever they want but to make sure the teachers have absolutely no power over them.

[ree-ree]

I feel like most teachers and principals do care (not all, mind you) but they are inneffective.
But if the parents send their kids to school expecting the school to set boundries and deal with discipline while at home there is none then that usually won't work. (And these same parents are often the ones that say,"Not my kid, you're just picking on him/her." Then they go home and tell the kid he/she doesn't have to listen to the teacher or principal because they're full of crap.)