selling out

[mr_j]

I'd like to see you go out and get a band, tour internationally for a few years, come back $50,000 in debt with several failed records and two STDs. And then talk about selling out. Shit, you'd have to sell out just to pay for your VD pillzzz.

Just kidding. Stick to the local scene so you'll only get one STD and a huge bar tab.

You forgot about smack rehab. That costs money too.

don't forget the hush money for the mothers of your illegitimates!

[Rubbs]

I really think it depends to some extent from person to person. I would love noting more than the be able to do nothing but write for a living. However, i also know that I am going to have to tie together my insane stuff into a plot (put one that I think is perfect for the idea...not a john grisham book) in order to hopefully sell some books. Of course the only real reason that I would want to "sell" them is to get people to read them so I would have time to wirte more. I would also write copy for cool commercials and still consider it art...because I love the idea of "creating" that type of positioning...I think it can be defintely be artistic. However, there is a line that I could cross where it is more about the MONEY than the ART. But that is probably a personal line that is in someones heart. There are definetly people selling out in this world. But the "selling out" part starts way before their music, job, school work or anything else. Selling out is vanity, loss of perspective, and lack of insight in the important things. When these things take control of who you are....you become a sell out. To be honest, most musicians that I have met are not the most self aware people in the world....So selling out is decsion that varies from person to person and lots of times these people aren't wise enough to be in control of really anything without the right people helping them and giving them advice. Of course most labels, booking agents, and industry types give no shit about you or your music. So if you are listening to them instead of your bands, friends, and family...well you are pretty fucked. One band may be able to handle being the "biggest" band in the world without selling out, while another band may headline fry street fair and immediately starting writing radio edits and hooks. But I think there is a definite line though....if you write music for commercial appeal it definetly become souless. There is no hiding from that at all. It is your right and the music may be decent....but people who still listent to you with a soul will notice and not like it as much. It's the bands right to do, and it is the listeners right to not be inspired. It is what it is....but for me life without spirit is a big waste of time...and oh in my world...the biggest sin.

"where you treasures are, there your heart will be also." Book Of Matthew

So if you want money or a hit and that is what you want...then that is the only way you will be happy.

So if you want to just be able to create music for a living, then that is when you will be happy.

So if you just want to write wonderful music, then that is where you will be happy.

*************************

for me....

I just like to create and write....there are some projects that I desperately want to finish.

I want to finish my stories and give life to my ideas...if/when that happens...I usually feel quite good (orgasmic). I would like to have time to do more of this.

[ree-ree]

aside from all that, i hate commercials and once a song is used on a commercial it just becomes noise to me, just like the fucking Stacy Furtniture guy yelling in my face.

Yep.

And it can change the make-up of the audience a bit. Quite a few people were complaining that when Iron and Wine toured with Calexico that there were people who's only exposure to Sam Beam was the M & M's commercial, so needless to say they weren't the best audience in the world.(And I'm not an Iron and Wine fan but to sit thru a concert chit-chatting while waiting for one song is kind of stupid. It's also a little embarressing if a band plays the song from a commercial and it gets the biggest response of the evening. OUCH.)

And I really agree with what Rubbs is saying. Very, very insightful.

[Irock]

a lot of musicians write songs thinking "i hope this will get lots of radio time".

Thom Yorke on Creep:

"That's good fridge buzz."

[Irock]

theres a difference between logan playing a shitty gig and logan selling a song that he wrote that he loves to something he doesnt love (a corporation).

So where's the line? When a sculpture is commisioned to do a piece to go in the lobby of a major corporation, or a painter to design a logo, are they neccesarily selling out?
What if s/he makes a piece that is later bought and displayed in the lobby? The corporation is using that artists work to say something about their own image; does it cheapen the piece? Does it cheapen the artist?

[Rebecca]

theres a difference between logan playing a shitty gig and logan selling a song that he wrote that he loves to something he doesnt love (a corporation).

i dont think its putting artists up on a pedestal to expect sincerity and integrity from them. i expect that of all people and i think all people are capable of integrity AND earning a living. i think its pretty defeatist to assume that you have to give up at least part of what you beleive in to survive. i think its the opposite.

you have to be a person of substance. you have to matter to yourself or you sure as hell wont matter to anyone else.

By your definition, it seems that using your creative abilities to perform meaningless music for people who are paying you is also selling out. Also, you shouldn't expect anything from anyone, especially sincerity and integrity.

[froggorino]

that music means something to the people whose wedding you are playing at, though, for god's sake! and if they didn't hire you, there are 20 more behind you who spent their teenage years in the bedroom with the door closed and a guitar in hand.

trying to tell others how to use their creativity or talent will ALWAYS, not sometimes -- mind you, but ALWAYS put you in the loser spot. you have no possible chance of winning. it is futile.

one of the things that makes musicians (artists in general) the way we are is our ability to tune out the nagging environment, whether it is our moms telling us to clean our rooms or a significant other whining about some lyrics we wrote, and begging to know if "this song is about MEEEEEEEEE?????" we are used to it. if we are to survive and not get stifled into the ground, we learn to ignore.

i am not telling you what to do, and if you find it totally necessary and irresistable to get emotionally wrapped up in the choices of people who are generally as sociopathic as they come, more power to ya. but you might get piss on ya when the wind changes direction.

[Rubbs]

My father in law is one of the best musicians I know. I, however, do not consider him an artist in the least.


Dalya--

In life there is more power in being than expecting.

[mr_j]

two great quotes about 'selling out":

"Look at it like this. Your dad works his ass off every day. He gets up at five in the morning and isn't home until seven at night. It's not that he loves or hates his job, it's just something he has to do in order to pay the bills. So he busts his ass off for years, and then, one day, he's offered a major promotion, with nearly double the pay and half the hours. Are you going to tell him, 'NO ITS UNETHICAL FOR YOU TO TAKE THAT PROMOTION?' Of course not. You'd be happy for him, right? Why should artists who work their ass off be any different?" -- some dude in some emo band in some magazine i read not too long ago

and my favorite:

"Fat, lazy, drunk shits tell me I've sold out. Fuck them. I'm doing what I want to do. I ask them, 'How many times have you sold yourself out this week?" Surprisingly, these dumbfucks never answer me. I'd love to break their faces just for wasting my time, but then they're not worth i." -- Henry Rollins

[Rubbs]

James,

What's that story from your fraternity?

-Rubbs

[Rubbs]

two great quotes about 'selling out":

"Look at it like this. Your dad works his ass off every day. He gets up at five in the morning and isn't home until seven at night. It's not that he loves or hates his job, it's just something he has to do in order to pay the bills. So he busts his ass off for years, and then, one day, he's offered a major promotion, with nearly double the pay and half the hours. Are you going to tell him, 'NO ITS UNETHICAL FOR YOU TO TAKE THAT PROMOTION?' Of course not. You'd be happy for him, right? Why should artists who work their ass off be any different?" -- some dude in some emo band in some magazine i read not too long ago

and my favorite:

"Fat, lazy, drunk shits tell me I've sold out. Fuck them. I'm doing what I want to do. I ask them, 'How many times have you sold yourself out this week?" Surprisingly, these dumbfucks never answer me. I'd love to break their faces just for wasting my time, but then they're not worth i." -- Henry Rollins

Some music and art is about making money....

Some isn't.

Either is the right of the one making it. But if one gets into music to make art, but along the way decides he/she would rather change their art and indeed start making art just for money. Then well...he/she has sold out. It can happen. However I like to watch american idol and the winner will make a lot of money when he/she win (go Katherine!) and I will not have any expectation at all of them not trying to make a pop/money making album--thus not selling out.

I assume that Mr. J you want to be a teacher for reasons beyond the paycheck. If you scrapped that for some job that made a 100K a year running a SPA for the rich. Would you be selling out? Of course.

[Rubbs]

for the record...

if you are reading this and you are in a band, please don't assume that it is about you....well unless you feel guilty. If that's the case, its your problem to deal with. I'm not implying anything about anyone in particular.

[ree-ree]

the choices of people who are generally as sociopathic as they come, more power to ya. but you might get piss on ya when the wind changes direction.

hahahaha! Very pragmatic, but sort of depressing.

[mr_j]

i think everyone in this thread needs to stop everything and get this book. it's a wonderful, wonderful text. if you haven't read it, i highly recommend it. studs terkel's books are utterly fascinating.

[James]

James,

What's that story from your fraternity?

-Rubbs

Music means nothing if there’s nobody there to hear it.