osteopathic medicine?

[aquaphase]

pot gives you an appetite. fact.

pot makes me violently throw up. fact.

[Dalya]

speak for yourself. I know many many people (myself included) who have benefitted from it.

agreed. my sister is allergic to antibiotics and homeopathy helped her when nothing else could. it's worked for me, too, but in less drastic ways.

p.s. all of quantum physics is based on shit that nobody can prove simultaneously. remember the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? You can't measure a particles position and its velocity, just one or the other. "Furthermore, quantum physics leaves us with a rather large open question: what is reality? The Copenhagen interpretation attempts to solve this problem by saying that reality is what is measured. However, the measuring device itself is then not real until it is measured. The problem, which is known as the measurement problem, is when does the cycle stop?"

[Jan]

speak for yourself. I know many many people (myself included) who have benefitted from it.

agreed. my sister is allergic to antibiotics and homeopathy helped her when nothing else could. it's worked for me, too, but in less drastic ways.

p.s. all of quantum physics is based on shit that nobody can prove simultaneously. remember the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? You can't measure a particles position and its velocity, just one or the other. "Furthermore, quantum physics leaves us with a rather large open question: what is reality? The Copenhagen interpretation attempts to solve this problem by saying that reality is what is measured. However, the measuring device itself is then not real until it is measured. The problem, which is known as the measurement problem, is when does the cycle stop?"

You can't compare quantum physics with homoeopathy. Homoeopathy is based on absurd theory that water molecules have a memory, so therefore can copy other molecules. Silly enough, but it gets dafter when apparently diluting the solution repeated times increases the potency of said solution. You are talking about solutions that have an active component in the region of 1 part per billion. It all a placebo affect - I know if I was suffering from any illness, I'd take the drugs that are proven to work, else I could have a glass of water, which would be as useful as whatever a homoeopathic "doctor" would give me. Or maybe I could go to a witch doctor, or ask my mailman to do some chanting on my behalf.

[squeezle]

It all a placebo affect

are you saying there is something wrong with activating the placebo effect? sometimes that is all that is needed to engage the body's natural ability to heal itself, and, to me, this is a good thing - especially when some biomedical treatments and medicines have really nasty side effects.

[Jan]

It all a placebo affect

are you saying there is something wrong with activating the placebo effect? sometimes that is all that is needed to engage the body's natural ability to heal itself, and, to me, this is a good thing - especially when some biomedical treatments and medicines have really nasty side effects.

Certainly not, as it is proven that a placebo works for certain people. I just wouldn't want to see homoeopathy used to treat anything more serious than a bad cough. If you believe in it, the positive thoughts will help, but you would want to battle cancer with some fucking tap water and happy thoughts.

[squeezle]

It all a placebo affect

are you saying there is something wrong with activating the placebo effect? sometimes that is all that is needed to engage the body's natural ability to heal itself, and, to me, this is a good thing - especially when some biomedical treatments and medicines have really nasty side effects.

Certainly not, as it is proven that a placebo works for certain people. I just wouldn't want to see homoeopathy used to treat anything more serious than a bad cough. If you believe in it, the positive thoughts will help, but you would want to battle cancer with some fucking tap water and happy thoughts.

depending on the circumstances, i'd give a lot of alternative treatments (not just homeopathy) a go - hell, it'd be better than losing my hair and puking my guts up for months. there's something to be said for quality of life.

[Dalya]

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#a1

half the reason there is no evidence is because pharm. companies fund most medical research and they clearly are not interested in finding the effectiveness of homeopathy. there is not enough research to prove or disprove its effectiveness.

also, my homeopathic doctor is also an MD. he'll prescribe drugs if its necessary (pneumonia or something actually dangerous) but not otherwise. my regular doctor, on the other hand, will prescribe antibiotics without my even going in to see him. all I have to do is call and say I have a sore throat. now we have drug-resistant bacteria because people can't handle a sore throat for 3 days and are too lazy/ignorant to try other methods of relieving it (gargling salt water even). beyond that, half the time they get prescribed for viral infections (how would my doctor know if it's bacterial or not over the phone??). i.e. ALSO a placebo.

homeopathy is also based on the idea that a substance which produces symptoms in someone healthy can be used to treat someone with those symptoms, an idea which Hippocrates also subscribed to. and in any case, dilute solutions can have a significant effect and its ridiculous to just decide because they are dilute, they are useless. in concentration, they could be ineffective or dangerous. you only need like 50 - 100 micrograms of B12 every day. if you took it in a single pill that would be extremely dilute as well. that doesn't mean it has no effect.

[Tracy]

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#a1

also, my homeopathic doctor is also an MD. he'll prescribe drugs if its necessary (pneumonia or something actually dangerous) but not otherwise. my regular doctor, on the other hand, will prescribe antibiotics without my even going in to see him. all I have to do is call and say I have a sore throat. now we have drug-resistant bacteria because people can't handle a sore throat for 3 days and are too lazy/ignorant to try other methods of relieving it (gargling salt water even). beyond that, half the time they get prescribed for viral infections (how would my doctor know if it's bacterial or not over the phone??). i.e. ALSO a placebo.

Just curious, if your homeopathic doctor is an MD, why do you have a "regular" doctor, too? I wouldn't be a patient of a doctor who would prescribe antibiotics over the phone. Even when my children had staph infections in their fingers from picking up pine cones and getting pricked, their doctor wanted to see them even though it was obviously bacterial and not viral.

When I interviewed pediatricians, one of the questions I always asked was, "How do you treat a fever?". I wanted to know if they were going to let my kids' systems try to fight whatever was causing the fever before writing a prescription.

Manipulation is still a part of osteopath's repertoire. They believe that your body's structure affects your health and it's ability to heal itself.

We have an abundance of DOs in the this area because of the proximity of the Unversity of North Texas Health Science Center here in FW. It used to be called Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine. Now, TCOM is part of UNTHSC. DOs are not as plentiful in other parts of the country and are sometimes thought of as not "real" doctors or even "quacks" by people who don't anything about them. I never considered them to practice anything but allopathic medicine, though.

[Jan]

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#a1

half the reason there is no evidence is because pharm. companies fund most medical research and they clearly are not interested in finding the effectiveness of homeopathy. there is not enough research to prove or disprove its effectiveness.

This isn't really true - homoeopathic hospitals and the NHS in the UK both investigated the usefulness of homoeopathy and found no proof in it's claims. There has been many independent studies showing no proof that it works

also, my homeopathic doctor is also an MD. he'll prescribe drugs if its necessary (pneumonia or something actually dangerous) but not otherwise. my regular doctor, on the other hand, will prescribe antibiotics without my even going in to see him. all I have to do is call and say I have a sore throat. now we have drug-resistant bacteria because people can't handle a sore throat for 3 days and are too lazy/ignorant to try other methods of relieving it (gargling salt water even). beyond that, half the time they get prescribed for viral infections (how would my doctor know if it's bacterial or not over the phone??). i.e. ALSO a placebo.

The placebo effect given by homoepathic remedies is due to the extra time that a GP spends with their patient, listening to their complaints and symptoms, which most regular GP's (probably like your case) can afford to spend the time doing. Many MD's are also involved with homoeopathic remedies for this very reason. Obviously it is much more reassuring to have someone spend a good hour speaking to you about you illness/symptoms than be handed a prescription after a short discussion.

homeopathy is also based on the idea that a substance which produces symptoms in someone healthy can be used to treat someone with those symptoms, an idea which Hippocrates also subscribed to. and in any case, dilute solutions can have a significant effect and its ridiculous to just decide because they are dilute, they are useless. in concentration, they could be ineffective or dangerous. you only need like 50 - 100 micrograms of B12 every day. if you took it in a single pill that would be extremely dilute as well. that doesn't mean it has no effect.

This is pseudo science nonsense. The concentrations are like putting a drop of salt water into an Olympic sized swimming pool of tap water and expecting that to be an effective concentration.

50-100mg of anything in the human body is quite a lot - and it is quite simple to make up that sized concentration. Then there is the bollocks about water having a memory...

[Dalya]

Even when my children had staph infections in their fingers from picking up pine cones and getting pricked, their doctor wanted to see them even though it was obviously bacterial and not viral.

well, staph is a lot more dangerous than tonsillitis. and especially for kids. my pediatrician never did that because kids can't really communicate their symptoms effectively ("my tummy hurts" means strep, flu, or HIV?) I've never met a general practitioner who doesn't do what my doctor does (at least, not in the city). i have a general practitioner because a) the homeopathic doctor has like a 4 month waiting list, since he is also an MD (sort of rare) and b) my dr. prescribes me aderall, which the homeopathic dr. would not approve of, i'm sure and c) i sort of i like having both. the more opinions the better.

well, as far as DOs being less "real" than MDs, it IS easier to get into osteopathic medical school, so that sort of makes me suspicious. The average MCAT scores are lower than even the bottom 50 allopathic medical schools in the US. much lower than the top 50. GPAs, etc, are also lower. i know that's not a perfect way to judge, but it makes me feel like it's a fall back for people who can't get into classical medical school or something...

[Dalya]

50-100mg of anything in the human body is quite a lot

micro, not milli. but in any case... i've had positive effects from taking the remedies without seeing the dr. (store-bought ones) so it's not only a placebo as an effect of a long discussion. In the spring I take homeopathic remedies for my allergies, when even benydryl barely works. So, take what you will from that. All I know is that OTC allergy meds don't help and that the remedies did help, and I am fairly skeptical about homeopathy. Thus, I still have a regular dr. But just because I'm skeptical doesn't mean I reject it altogether, or at least not all parts of it.

p.s. I wouldn't believe NHS studies if I were you... any more than I'd be like "oh! FDA approved! it's safe!" There have been independent studies but most of them have a strong bias (I'm saying this based on an article by a 3rd party who reviewed the available evidence) either for or against, almost none of them are double-blind (for things like rashes, ADD, that are observable), and most of them have an extremely small sample size. Etc... they're not great studies and there still aren't that many of them (as compared to the 500 studies on whether sugar causes ADHD).

[Tracy]

well, staph is a lot more dangerous than tonsillitis. and especially for kids.

well, as far as DOs being less "real" than MDs, it IS easier to get into osteopathic medical school, so that sort of makes me suspicious. The average MCAT scores are lower than even the bottom 50 allopathic medical schools in the US. much lower than the top 50. GPAs, etc, are also lower. i know that's not a perfect way to judge, but it makes me feel like it's a fall back for people who can't get into classical medical school or something...

The staph was a pus-filled blister on a finger-but it was yellow-green pus. We didn't know it was staph until the culture came back.

When we lived in Nevada, we had charts all over town because there were so few physicians-you saw the one who had an opening. One of the doctors in town went to medical school in Guadalajara, Mexico. I didn't notice any difference in the care he gave us as opposed to the domestically-trained doctors.

It's hard to get into medical school. There so much competition. We've been on the university-search circuit and many "name" schools are now allowing freshmen to apply for an 8-year program with automatic acceptance into medical school to relieve some of the pressure. I'm assuming there are minimum requirements that must also be met. (I didn't really pay that much attention to that part because, although my daughter has stated that she wants to study biomedical engineering, she does not want to be a doctor-at least not one that sees patients.)

And I, too, believe in homeopathy. Arnica montana works. Can the placebo effect work on the duration of a bruise?

[Dalya]

I think the difference in education is more apparent when it comes to preventive medicine and early detection. It takes a certain intellect to have alarm bells go off whenever a patient describes a given set of symptoms, or mentions one odd symptom, etc. You have to have amazing recall for rare cases like that, because it's not going to be second nature like recognizing staph.

Beyond that, the reputation of the school is important to me mostly because it means I will have more freedom to choose where I want to live, who I want to work for, etc. And I will make more money and will be able to quit and work for Doctors Without Borders sooner.

I wish your daughter luck. Engineering is my worst nightmare. I'm guessing she's a junior? What schools is she looking at?

[Tracy]

She's now a senior. She really wants to go to Brown. She's also looking at Rice, probably Tulane, and Washington University at St. Louis. She thought about applying at Johns Hopkins but decided they were "too hard core" for her.

I think she has as good a chance as anyone else at getting into Brown but I don't know if she's decided on "fall back" schools yet.

(Our dentist just retired and went to work in Africa - John Quincy. We miss him, he's an interesting man.)

[squeezle]

Washington University at St. Louis.

if she goes to WashU she needs to take at least one anthropology and/or women's studies course form my mentor who abandoned me to move there - she's a fantastic professor and a great person too