selling out

[froggorino]

Music means nothing if there’s nobody there to hear it.

that being said, i have to accept that there will probably always be someone who loves what i don't. so instead of trying my ass off to change what i can't, i should probably just respectfully excuse myself and leave that particular situation to those who can appreciate it.

i cannot force people to create what i want -- and in the end, if i want something created, i should probably just do it myself. if i am capable of that.

but that's just me.

frog"you know, you should really do only classic jazz covers"gy

[MaxWax]

Seems this subject of selling out is mighty touchy...let me add my 2 or 5 cents. I can't claim any kind of serious success on any national level. I've never been signed to any labels nor had any songs on the radio. I left college at 18 to chase the dream...I moved to Cally at 21 to see what I could see. I came back to Indiana and dropped out of college again to chase the dream... I travelled 32 states in 6 years chasing the dream making $30 a week sometimes, playing 5-6 nights a week travelling 10 hours on off nights, sleeping in crappy band trailers or smut hotels. 13 people in an old school bus that had to be push started everytime it was shut off. By the time we finally started playing good places after a couple years, and making big money ($100 each a week!), and getting noticed in local mags...alcohol and drugs had killed friendships and ruined memories...to the point that we split up. I then spent the next 11 years playing a 3 state region 5-6 nights a week, cooking chicken at KFC daily to pay bills. Finally I did get my degree, and have spent yet another 5 years with another local band playing weekends, as well as an acoustic show which makes more money than I ever made my entire playing career. It's all cover tunes, with a few originals.... but speaking for myself... If I had an opportunity to make $25,000 for use of one of my songs for a commercial...I would not hesistate..and I don't even wanna get into a discussion on what I have given up in this life to try and make music my life.

[monet2u]

MaxWax, your story is pretty typical of many artists.

[Dalya]

Selling out is vanity, loss of perspective, and lack of insight in the important things. When these things take control of who you are....you become a sell out.

i agree totally.

i think you all are misunderstanding me. just because i judge someone for doing something doesnt mean i am telling them not to. it is their work. its their choice. im not so egotistical as to believe my opinion matters more than others. its not like i want to make it illegal or something. i dont do drugs and i dont really like being around people who are doing them, but i dont think pot should be illegal. it doesnt necessarily mean i wont buy their cd or go to their concerts anymore either.

i will lose respect for them, though. a lot or a little depending on the choices they make. i'm just being honest here. i'm not trying to be idealistic. it changes my opinion of the band when they sell their music to commercials. it just does. period. i think when money becomes your major motivation you're watering down your soul. money isnt real and shouldnt be thought of as anything more than a tool to get by in the world.

that being said, i think theres a difference between "trying to make an honest living" as you put it, froggy, and being greedy. you always have a choice how to make a living. ALWAYS. it may not be the best choice, but you have one. plenty of bands make a living without ever getting a song on a commercial. PLENTY. and plenty of bands survive years and years without a radio hit.

perfect example: widespread panic. they allow taping at their shows. they purposely released their album to kazaa before it came out. and they made millions anyway, on touring. because they have a loyal fanbase. they break every business rule but they have millions of fans, hundreds of which who follow them around the country from show to show.

why do you NEED a bigger audience? is it because need to it make enough money to continue making music or is it because you think the bigger audience will make you happy? if that is the reason, you're fucked, because it wont. find me a single person who achieved happiness through fame. happiness concerns your soul not your situation in life. aiming for happiness through any source other than your soul is futile. actually aiming for happiness is futile, because its not something you find. its not a key hidden in the grass somehwere. its a state of being. once you are able to be happy with yourself, everything else will fall into place.

all i know is, i would never fucking allow someone else to use something i wrote to further their career, unless it was something i believed in like maybe a political candidate i supported. or a charity. that kind of thing. something beautiful that i can get behind. something that will raise me up, not cause me to settle.

maybe i'm an idealist, but i think people are inherently good and can be infitnitely better.

for the record...

if you are reading this and you are in a band, please don't assume that it is about you....well unless you feel guilty. If that's the case, its your problem to deal with. I'm not implying anything about anyone in particular.

*dying laughing* rubbs, one of the charachters in the story im working on is based on you. i might have to paraphrase this.

[froggorino]

i had this friend in high school who was a fantastic artist. he made beautiful stuff. he had the most makked out airbrush equipment on the market. and he was disgusted by his parents for the fact that they were both attorneys. (and had enough cash to bestow these gifts upon him.)

i sell houses. and warehouses. and land. i haven't even been doing it that long, and i don't mind saying that i am totally rockin it the fuck out. lots of people complain about realtors to me, and are completely surprised when they find out what i do. realtors are those stuffy bitches with too much makeup, right? wellllllllllll, i just returned home from getting a contract signed on a significantly expensive property, and i am wearing jeans and sandals and a t-shirt that has the number 5 on it. this client of mine is big dolla and i do lots of deals with her -- got a bank statement right here saying she has 500,000 in checking in order to support this all-cash deal we are proposing. we jive. she is also building 30 condos in one of the the historic districts here in town. They are each gonna list for around 350. would i like to get that listing? you do the math at 3% per. would i put on something more dressy if i were to sit an open house in one of those condos? absofuckinglutely. but in general, she doesn't give a shit what i am wearing. she's not trying to have my babies.

perspective is everything. russell was unable to see that the reason he had all the toys to make his art was the fact that his parents were sell-outs (according to him.) other realtors think that a nice suit makes you a kick-ass sales person and expert negotiator. it don't. people bring themselves to whatever they are doing.

if they smile when they wanna cry, they are selling out. anything else can be chalked up to a business decision based on the sum of their experiences mixed with their personal priorites. we all gotta eat.

[Dalya]

yeah but we dont all have to send our kids to private school and dance class and karate and summer camp and buy 5 cars and a house with a pool and a maid and a fendi bag and an armani suit and a fucking dog to put in your purse.

ill say it again, theres a difference between making money and being greedy.

the rich keep getting richer and te poor keep getting poorer. all the economists see it -- the middle class is dissapearing. everyone is terrified of which class theyll end up in.

money wont make you happy. money makes your life simpler but not fuller. money cannot fill you up. things cannot fill you up.

but yes you need it to live. so if you want to defend people who are REALLY trying to earn an honest living, lets talk about getting the minimum wage raised. dont worry about ____ _____ being able to afford marc jacobs bags.

[MaxWax]

MaxWax, your story is pretty typical of many artists.

My point...exactly! And I don't know too many of my fellow musicians who did travelled the same path who wouldn't do whatever it took to be able to eat and still play music!

[froggorino]

yeah but we dont all have to send our kids to private school and dance class and karate and summer camp and buy 5 cars and a house with a pool and a maid and a fendi bag and an armani suit and a fucking dog to put in your purse.

dolan is attending an all-boys, kinda granola-ified private school next year. it costs about 10 grand. am i busting my ass to make that happen? yep. totally. because my #1 priority is making sure that he is in a safe environment where the facility mirrors my ideals about life. this is the age where his walls are either gonna fly up in defense, or they are gonna stay down and he can grow in limitless directions. it matters, and it is worth it.

frog"and the $6 sandals that i am wearing kick more ass because they were so cheap and are still cool"gy

[Dalya]

yeah but are you exploiting yourself to do it? no. i went to private school too because my granpa was smart enough to set trust funds for all his grandkids. but he made his money in a business he started, not by selling something of himself. theres a huge difference. i didnt say having a job is bad. i'm saying that if your GOAL is MONEY you will never reach your goal because youll never have "enough" becaus money doesnt fill you up. youll never be full and youll always be hungry and what was the point?

i also think if you hate your job but you wont quit because you want your family to have nice things or whatever, thats pathetic. thats the kind of person my dad is and i cant stand it about him. how can you make anyone else happy if youre not happy? buying things doesnt make you a good parent. that doesnt mean buying things makes you a BAD parent, but its not the only ingredient. positive energy and laughter and happiness will do more to raise a child well than anything else.

getting off topic...

[ree-ree]

yeah but we dont all have to send our kids to private school and dance class and karate and summer camp and buy 5 cars and a house with a pool and a maid and a fendi bag and an armani suit and a fucking dog to put in your purse.

What's really sad is people do that whether they can afford it or not so that their kids can have "opportunities". They throw so much crap at their kids and want them to excel and "be the best" in everything that by the time they're done the child doesn't know which way is up, let alone what he/she really wants (which was to just dig in the dirt in the backyard in the first place.)

And families go into debt over it all.

But I digress.

[froggorino]

but he made his money in a business he started, not by selling something of himself. theres a huge difference. i didnt say having a job is bad. ..

i think we are agreeing, dalya. i do want to say again, though, that until i walk a day in someone's shoes, i don't have any idea what it takes to be them.

if your grandfather (just for example) never had ONE dinner his whole career with someone he thought was a jackass, being polite and congenial for the sake of business, i would be shocked and amazed. and he would be the only one in history who has had a successful career without having to play the game, ever.

is that selling out? is it being dishonest? i don't know. it's a tough question. but people can be assholes, and sometimes we have to deal with them in a business setting without saying, "hey, you are a fucking asshole, and i can't wait to get out of your presence. i am already dreading the next time i have to see you, you douchebag. thanks!"

i know that this is really hard for me. i want to help people. and this includes helping them understand how they are flawed. haaaaaaaaaa. isn't that nice of me? but the truth is that most people don't wanna hear it. the immature me wants to shove it in their face anyway. and i want to do it bad. to the point where i am most proud of myself when i refrain because restraint has never been one of my most natural traits. i am trying to just be grateful to be out of their presence when i finally am, and leave it at that.

tough topic cause it is so subjective. sometimes we just have to let our loved ones crash and burn, though, lest we deprive them of their own valuable life experience. and it has been my observation that most people don't make any kind of effective change until we are in a whole lot of pain -- or at least discomfort. human nature, i guess.

[Tracy]

yeah but we dont all have to send our kids to private school and dance class and karate and summer camp and buy 5 cars and a house with a pool and a maid and a fendi bag and an armani suit and a fucking dog to put in your purse.

ill say it again, theres a difference between making money and being greedy.

the rich keep getting richer and te poor keep getting poorer. all the economists see it -- the middle class is dissapearing. everyone is terrified of which class theyll end up in.

money wont make you happy. money makes your life simpler but not fuller. money cannot fill you up. things cannot fill you up.

but yes you need it to live. so if you want to defend people who are REALLY trying to earn an honest living, lets talk about getting the minimum wage raised. dont worry about ____ _____ being able to afford marc jacobs bags.

The world is not perfect, it never will be. (I'm not saying that we should stop trying to make it so.)

We don't have cable TV and don't care but to someone else that might be a "necessity". I don't think it's really my place to judge what others feel they need - even though I drive a Honda and can't imagine why ANYONE in their right mind would WANT a Hummer.

[Dalya]

i think its selling out when it concerns a long period of time or something that has been very important to you. so no, being nice to someone you dont like isnt selling out. its fake but its not selling out. but if youre being nice to your boss who sexually harasses you because you dont want to get fired, then yes that is selling out. and if you leave a company you love for another company that will pay you more but you dont like, thats selling out. and if you sell your song to pepsi, when, if you had the option, youd rather make that money off album sales and concert tickets, then thats selling out. these things affect your self esteem and your life in general, not just one annoying dinner conversation.

i doubt most musicians WANT to be in a commercial, as in, they'd much rather get discovered some other organic way. i dont think many people are hoping to help VW sell more bugs. therefore its settling when you accept that kind of offer. imo.