Dear "Other forum" spies

[jbfromoc]

That being said, stop the band talk and get on to the Fork talk.

Before I leave, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the honesty most of you have shown. It's been very refreshing. Thank you.

[ree-ree]

I meant to post this at the end of my rant but...

That being said, stop the band talk and get on to the Fork talk.

I AGREE!!!!!!

[aquaphase]

That being said, stop the band talk and get on to the Fork talk.

Before I leave, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the honesty most of you have shown. It's been very refreshing. Thank you.

hehehehe. That's what got a lot of us in trouble in the first place.

And, no, we don't want to chase you off.

[Irock]

(look how much fun was had when little ol' me got banned).

You were banned?

It's funny how you say that as if you expect us to know. As if you expect that we'd even notice if you were banned.

You're routine's not new, and you're not original.

[Phyllis]

And, no, we don't want to chase you off.

uh. i do.

[aquaphase]

And, no, we don't want to chase you off.

uh. i do.

and you are entitled to your opinion.

(not that you need any protecting from anyone )

[Dalya]

So if a forum has long-time members (with status and influence) who are "hurt" or "disinterested" about the direction of a certain band and they create an atmosphere that hinders new fans from joining, why shouldn't someone try to push a few buttons to help expose who these people are and their true intentions?

I'm all for screwing around and this forum seems like a great place. So why screw around on the other forum at the expense of the band?

um... who exactly are "those people" and what do you mean by "true intentions"?

If anybody had the intention of hurting the band, they could easily do so. nobody has, including members of the band who have quit and/or been fired. so i dont really think it is the old-school forumites who contributed to the negative atmosphere on the "other" forum, so much as the band itself did.

[James]

They may be a known commodity, but they still have a long way to go. And I agree what's going on now in the forum is nothing compared to the past. However, why risk a major meltdown at the time TFA is released? I'm sure some folks would take great joy if that happened (look how much fun was had when little ol' me got banned). It would be much better if everything was out in the open NOW and true intentions were made clear.

And I'm not looking to invalidate anyone's feelings. Clearly there are good reasons for some people to be hurt and upset with management. However, do you really think a fan from Australia, Argentina or even Arkansas really cares about management and their actions? No. For them, it is about the music and the joyous (yet cathartic) emotions associated with it. And they don't need to read comments like "why even live with a pretense that it's even a band any more?" That post might have made a certain member feel better about what happened to them, but why piss in the pool where the rest of us swim? Unless you really want us to drink piss instead of the kool-aid.

Again, this comes with the belief that the forum is a major driver with the success of the band. In fact, it is not. Understand this, please. Any "major meltdown" by the forum at any time will have little bearing on how this new record will do. It has to do with one thing: can the band win the fans that will buy the record? Maybe come to a show? Maybe buy some merch at that show?

I think you're really stretching with this "true intentions" thing. Of all the forums I have belonged to, the ones that are real will speak their minds. I have read nothing that isn't someone just speaking their mind at the moment. So people thought the band might have half-assed the xmas show? So what? Others didn't. A conversation happened, and it moved on. It's bound to happen; you can't please all the people all the time.

As for your comments regarding "why subject people from places that begin with the letter 'A' to any sort of contrary opinion regarding the ban", can you not let them make up their own mind? Do you honestly think that new people coming to the board are so naive in that they are influenced by what someone says? Maybe they overlook it. Maybe they don't want to get involved with the forum because of personality issues. Who knows? But that decision is not mine or yours to make. And again, at the end of the day, it comes down to: can the band win fans to the point they buy their album. Sure, the forum is a catalyst for it (albeit very small), but if everything said was simply one-sided, it would be viewed as a commercial and most people are put off by that. Honesty really is the only way. Who are you to say they don't need to read it anyway? That's a bit Nanny-state-ish. You should come live in England if you want that.

However, you seem to think there's some sort of al-qaeda plot to bring down the band 9/11 style, and I have to say THAT's crazy. Just as a forum cannot drive a band to the top, they also cannot destroy them either. Again, you put WAY too much stock in a forum.

I don't think anyone would take joy in the band being dismantled. In fact, the people you probably consider to be trying to take it down would be the saddest of all, because quite a few of them have been around since the very beginning, and before, with Tripping Daisy. For me, it's part of my legacy to the world, so obviously I would be crushed. But more than that, the only people that can make that decision are the band themselves.

And as for this statement: "why even live with a pretense that it's even a band any more?". Was there any logical retort to it? It may not be a question you like to read, but do you have an answer, other than 'people don't need to be reading things like that'? It may not have been comfortable, but it is an honest question.

[Dalya]

i agree with james. i think the people who are angriest at the band [management] are the ones who would be happiest if the band turned itself around and became something amazing again. and mister joseph had a good point, although he missed it a little. a lot of the people who "turned against the band" were in the band or worked for the band or had close friends in the band. So yes, I personally don't like the way some of my friends were treated, but its not like any of them were raped. Things evolved over time. Certain "policies" became apparent, other policies are still not apparent--like why they fire band members. It's not like my best friend quit the band and I tried to burn Tim's house down. No. It's not that black and white. It took a long time for me to see things as they are. I don't like the way I was treated most of all. I feel like I have been used by the band and others have been used worse than me. Like Rubberman. And Wyatt. And the members of the band.

In anything, honesty and consideration for others will always get you the furthest. Maybe thats why the band isnt getting anywhere.

[jbfromoc]

Again, this comes with the belief that the forum is a major driver with the success of the band. In fact, it is not. Understand this, please. Any "major meltdown" by the forum at any time will have little bearing on how this new record will do. It has to do with one thing: can the band win the fans that will buy the record? Maybe come to a show? Maybe buy some merch at that show?

On this issue, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Given the current climate of the music industry and the stranglehold on mainstream media, I believe the internet (including the forum) is the major driver for people to discover and become attached to the band and its music.

I think you're really stretching with this "true intentions" thing. Of all the forums I have belonged to, the ones that are real will speak their minds. I have read nothing that isn't someone just speaking their mind at the moment. So people thought the band might have half-assed the xmas show? So what? Others didn't. A conversation happened, and it moved on. It's bound to happen; you can't please all the people all the time.

The two xmas show threads ("Reindeer" and "Overpriced Tix") themselves are not the cause of my concern. People have a right to voice their opinion (positive and negative). I'm all for keeping it real... to a point. However, I am concerned of why some people are still hanging around the other forum given their feelings about the band (and this is not directed to you or some of the other members). Another "other forum" member likened the current environment in the other forum to a relationship breakup. If someone breaks your heart, why stick around and continue to be hurt? Furthermore, why allow your friends and supporters to disrupt your "ex" from forming new relationships? True, it may not be your responsibility, but you could try do something about it if you really cared.

As for your comments regarding "why subject people from places that begin with the letter 'A' to any sort of contrary opinion regarding the ban", can you not let them make up their own mind? Do you honestly think that new people coming to the board are so naive in that they are influenced by what someone says?

When the statements are made by forum members who used to be in the band or are friends of former band members or act like they run the forum... then my answer is YES.

However, you seem to think there's some sort of al-qaeda plot to bring down the band 9/11 style, and I have to say THAT's crazy. Just as a forum cannot drive a band to the top, they also cannot destroy them either. Again, you put WAY too much stock in a forum.

I never said destroy. I said "hinder" the evolution of the band and the forum.

I don't think anyone would take joy in the band being dismantled. In fact, the people you probably consider to be trying to take it down would be the saddest of all, because quite a few of them have been around since the very beginning, and before, with Tripping Daisy. For me, it's part of my legacy to the world, so obviously I would be crushed. But more than that, the only people that can make that decision are the band themselves.

I wish everyone felt the way you do. It would be nice if your statement was true for everyone.

And as for this statement: "why even live with a pretense that it's even a band any more?". Was there any logical retort to it? It may not be a question you like to read, but do you have an answer, other than 'people don't need to be reading things like that'? It may not have been comfortable, but it is an honest question.

When most people think of a band, they think lead singer, guitarist(s), bass player, drummer and maybe a keyboard player. This is not the case. Said band has 20+ members at any given time. It's preposterous to think a band with so many members would remain intact from beginning to end. How many times does a drummer leave a much smaller band without fans making such inflamatory statements? Plenty.

And it's not even fair to make traditional band comparisons in the first place. At best, the band construction should be viewed in the context of "Wings": Paul McCartney, Linda McCartney, Denny Laine (the core) and interchangeable members... not a "traditional" band but not a solo project either.

Please know that I'm not trying to change minds. I was hoping for a rational and open discussion between opposing views and so far... so good.

[Phyllis]

However, I am concerned of why some people are still hanging around the other forum given their feelings about the band (and this is not directed to you or some of the other members). Another "other forum" member likened the current environment in the other forum to a relationship breakup. If someone breaks your heart, why stick around and continue to be hurt? Furthermore, why allow your friends and supporters to disrupt your "ex" from forming new relationships? True, it may not be your responsibility, but you could try do something about it if you really cared.

i can't speak for everyone but the reason i am still there is because i've made some really great friends there (most of them have migrated over here though, which is why i like it here way more) and i like having conversations with people. just because you lose interest in the band doesn't mean you can't still interact with a forum. which is completely different from the band itself.

but of course you wouldn't know about that kind of friendship because everyone hates you.

[squeezle]

However, I am concerned of why some people are still hanging around the other forum given their feelings about the band (and this is not directed to you or some of the other members). Another "other forum" member likened the current environment in the other forum to a relationship breakup. If someone breaks your heart, why stick around and continue to be hurt? Furthermore, why allow your friends and supporters to disrupt your "ex" from forming new relationships? True, it may not be your responsibility, but you could try do something about it if you really cared.

i can't speak for everyone but the reason i am still there is because i've made some really great friends

to add to what phyll said - i never even liked the band to begin with, but i met and liked the people on the "other forum" (and in the band) so i decided to join. for me, the "other forum" was never even about the band, it is just a place to interact with my friends.

[jbfromoc]

just because you lose interest in the band doesn't mean you can't still interact with a forum.

True. However some of the "interaction" (especially with the newbies and the folks who are not "friends") has been very suspect as of late (and I'm not just talking about you alone).

[Dalya]

And it's not even fair to make traditional band comparisons in the first place. At best, the band construction should be viewed in the context of "Wings": Paul McCartney, Linda McCartney, Denny Laine (the core) and interchangeable members... not a "traditional" band but not a solo project either.

um, yeah, but why would you support that "band" anymore if the core of it treats everyone like total shit. fans, members, and "friends" alike.

and saying that people in other places or newer fans dont need to know about our personal issues with the band is stupid, imo. them enjoying music that was created in a not-so-nice way by not-so-nice people is the same as someone frolicking around the city in a t-shirt made by a 10 year old in Guam. dont you want to know what kind of people you are supporting? by buying their cd you are condoning their behavior just like youre condoning sweat shops when you shop at walmart. and to convince yourself that its "different" because they are "creative souls" and "cant be compared" to other businesses or bands is just naive.

their behavior is unaceptable whether the band considers itself a business or a family. you wouldn't fire an employee by email and you wouldnt divorce your husband by email. ethics are ethics no matter what you want to label the band.

[eebs]

warning - long rambles approaching....

i think to start with, liking the band was the reason for me joining up to the forum. from that i met a lot of people (online and later in real life) who i've got to know (some rather better than others ) and enjoy hanging out with.

there have been issues before and the first time the board went down was gutting. since then i've made sure that there are other ways to contact people / keep in touch with people from the board.

jb, you mentioned people's feelings about the band. i guess mine have changed over time - the last london show had a real different vibe around it and it wasn't an event i enjoyed - partly from the new material the band played which i felt was a poor pastiche of what had been in the past, partly due to the number of fucking arseholes in the crowd - the complete antithesis of what i had experienced previously. the magic had gone.

in 2003 i walked from the backbar of brixton academy, fully robed up with 3 pints and made it down to the front (if you haven't been there it's approx 2500 people to walk through ie. it's a long walk) without spilling a drop - people were waving me through, making space etc all with a smile on their face... all props to the band for creating that kind of atmosphere. this crowd on the other hand was the kind of crowd i grew up watching hardcore bands with.... shove,push, shove, kick,punch,grab. i was really looking forward to showing amy what an english show was all about - instead i spent the evening having to comfort her while she was in floods of tears.

i'm still interested in what the band will come up with next but not with the same level of passion that i had before together we're heavy came out. for obvious reasons i'll always have a soft spot for the band and the forum but hey, life moves on.

i'm not sure of your personal interest behind wanting to 'clear up' the board but there's always been a healthy level of debate there that reflected how people felt about the band. if the shows and new songs are an improvement on the last year or two, i'd hope you'd see the same honest opinions that might match your expectations about what a band forum should be about.

then again, for those who were there for a while, remember what we used to say about the spree forum. it was a welcoming place, different to many other band forums in that it wasn't about putting one over people or slagging them off. for me, i think it lost that 'innocence' over christmas if not before and that's why i'd rather spend my time elsewhere.

and last but not least for those who remember..... DBP!