american public school system

[mr_j]

more simply put, if they can be expected to learn english, why can we not be bothered to learn another language. next year dolan is taking japanese, and my sister speaks it too. and i think that's pretty cool.

frog"had 3 years of spanish, and four years of french and latin each, and it never hurt me a damn stinkin bit"gy

i agree with this. the reason those other countries had to learn multiple languages is, partially, due to them not being a superpower, but, two, because English is a dominant language held by powerful countries, with which trade is inevitable. that's not a right or wrong thing; it is what it is.

[mr_j]

we need to remember that in the rest of the world, it is common that folks are fluent in more than one language.

Froggy does bring up a good point here. How many American Forkers here can speak more than one language? Hell, I'll even entertain answers from the non-American Forkers.

I speak 2: English & German.

i can speak english, german, and some sign language.

[aquaphase]

more simply put, if they can be expected to learn english, why can we not be bothered to learn another language. next year dolan is taking japanese, and my sister speaks it too. and i think that's pretty cool.

frog"had 3 years of spanish, and four years of french and latin each, and it never hurt me a damn stinkin bit"gy

i agree with this. the reason those other countries had to learn multiple languages is, partially, due to them not being a superpower, but, two, because English is a dominant language held by powerful countries, with which trade is inevitable. that's not a right or wrong thing; it is what it is.

You are making the assumption that other nations are predominantly learning English as their second language. I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

[Dogatron]

I fairly sure that every country in europe teaches english in schools starting from when kids are 5...all the gamers I played with around europe (holland, finland, poland, croatia, portugal, sweden, spain, france, belgium etc) who are just 15-25 year olds speak and type english as good as myself...a 17 year old friend from finland is fluent in french, english, german and swedish because they teach a lot of languages from a young age...I think now in schools here they've re-introduced teaching languages in primary schools again which is something we only started doing when we were 13...

[Dalya]

Hell yes! When I was tiny and at a Montessori school, I learned German, Spanish and American Sign Language. I shrugged off most of the Spanish and ASL, but the German stuck and I kept taking it.

i teach Spanish to mostly 3, 4, and 5 year olds and we teach sign language along with the spanish words to help them remember it (because as its been proven over and over and over again, you learn things 3 times faster if you accompany it with a song or some type of action [game, motions, dance, etc]) they learn so quickly, its amazing. when theyre that young they cant grasp things like math or spelling yet, but they can learn so many things verbally.

the company i work for, All Star Movement Educators, is based around the idea of teaching all the different kinds of intelligence. here is an excerpt from the website. i really love everything Charlotte has to say about education:

"Traditionally, our society looks at two intelligence components, linguistic and mathematical skills, but they are not reflective of total intelligence. There are at least 7 types of intelligence components, for example spatial, musical, kinesthetic, interpersonal and intrapersonal-which includes interpretive abilities such as dance, tumbling, martial arts and drama. It helps us understand our own experiences. We all need the ability to PLAY! Theorists call it in-flow, when we have all suspended disbelief. Our classroom environment is perfect for doing this. We are inspiring creativity. Play\Creativity are not recreational but are indeed educational.

In our pre-school classes we work on all of the skills needed to pass the pre-kindergarten standard test given in Texas. At least 4 skills are included in each class: gross motor skills, rote counting, identification of body parts, and the ability to follow verbal directions. We work on "developmentally appropriate skills," and "age appropriate activities." We challenge them with problem solving, following instructions and working within a group within the creative process of movement education. They are working\learning and yet they do not realize this is the case-it is so natural. Learning needs to be aimed at both the Left and Right Brains - for a well-rounded education & for the healthy development of the whole person"

[mr_j]

some other problems i've seen, and these two things come from outside the classroom and the language issue:

1. A good number of people in the 'education' field are actually really down on education in particular and students in general. some professors have a really low opinion of lower education systems, yet they are the 'authority.' there's a lot of racism being passed down by people who honestly believe they're 'helping' society. some of these educators get really hung up on PC trends--and i'm not just saying that because i'm conservative in my worldview. there was a debate in the 1990s about whether or not female students were being left behind and neglected. well...turns out they weren't. but you'd never know it, coming from some people! but the thing is--and this is where the issue of bilingual educationcomes back in--when there are two groups, one group will almost always be neglected.

2. Idealism. The reason there's a high turnover of teachers is because many entering teachers get pumped with the idea that they can change the world. How quickly reality sets in for them. And I'm not saying that's bad, but if a teacher becomes disillusioned, it affects her perfomance in the classroom. and that's not right.

[Dalya]

i dont think idealism is the problem. optimistic and caring people are naturally attracted to jobs like teaching or nursing. the problem is the system itself. the teachers then get down on the system and feel helpless. ive experienced this lately on a much smaller level. i have to teach all my dance students a recital dance and they have to know it by a certain date. the second these kind of restrictions are put on you, it becomes much more frustrating to teach. you feel like you dont have time to go "off topic" and teach other useful things that dont necessarily pertain to what they "must" learn. the students always pick up on your feelings and get equally frustrated and bored with having the same thing drilled into their head. i imagine having to teach kids for the TOSS test or whatever its called now is a million times more frustrating. it puts you in the situation of feeling like you dont have enough time to grant individual attention or to make learning fun and meaningful.

dont even get me started on all the problems with standardized testing.

[Dalya]

and i sort of agree with your #1. what i take it to mean is that a lot of not-so-nice people are in education. i think its kind of like the cop complex. some people want that little bit of power - the ability to control and punish their students. ive had teachers like this and its horrible. i'm sure these kinds of people are particulalry attracted to urban schools where there are lots of hoodlums they can send to detention.

and i think racism is a huge problem in this country in general, and it shows up as a symptom in our schools. meaning, people subcontiously still believe minority groups are not as smart as whites because they have less money and therefore cant go as far in life and therefore lets not spend more tax dollars than we need to on those schools. the fact that people dont question the huge differences between south dallas schools and north dallas schools shows this racism. we just assume thats the way it will be, so were not surprised when predominantly white schools have great facilities and lots of honors/AP courses and predominantly minority schools have shitty facilities and hardly any course options.

[mr_j]

and i sort of agree with your #1. what i take it to mean is that a lot of not-so-nice people are in education. i think its kind of like the cop complex. some people want that little bit of power - the ability to control and punish their students. ive had teachers like this and its horrible. i'm sure these kinds of people are particulalry attracted to urban schools where there are lots of hoodlums they can send to detention.

and i think racism is a huge problem in this country in general, and it shows up as a symptom in our schools. meaning, people subcontiously still believe minority groups are not as smart as whites because they have less money and therefore cant go as far in life and therefore lets not spend more tax dollars than we need to on those schools. the fact that people dont question the huge differences between south dallas schools and north dallas schools shows this racism. we just assume thats the way it will be, so were not surprised when predominantly white schools have great facilities and lots of honors/AP courses and predominantly minority schools have shitty facilities and hardly any course options.

i see where you're saying, but that's not quite the direction i meant. what i mean is that there are very cynical professors in education departments who are teaching their own hatreds and prejudices about public education to their students.

and as for the racism, i'm talking about that thin line between liberalism and racism that is quite real, yet many refuse to acknowledge that it exists. it's a convoluted thinking that goes 'well, these students are black, and we must assume that because they're black, they're not going to have an interest in the basics of education, so we must approach them as if they do not care about education.' it happens. and, really, it's the same message you'd find from an admitted white supremist who says 'black people are inherently stupid.'

[Dalya]

i dont think the majority of people assume that minorities dont CARE about education, i think they assume they are not likely to learn as well as whites because they are poor or because historically minorities dont perform as well on standarduzed tests.

the first and most obvious problem is that minority schools have poorer facilities than predominantly white schools. i dont think anyone will argue with me that this is the case 99% of the time. this immediately sends the message to students AND THEIR TEACHERS that this school is not as important, these students are not as important, and they dont deserve the propor facilities and tools for their education. so, right away, walking into school, you are set up for failure.

the second problem is low expectations. i've heard the expression a lot "students can rise or fall to expectations". if you set low expectations for a body of students, even the brighter students will fall to meet your expectations. the number one thing for a teacher and school board to do is to set high expectations, not just for the stupid tests but for attendance, class participation, percentage of graduates, percentage who will go on to college, etc. if you go into the year assuming 1/3 of your students will drop out, are you going to try very hard to keep them in school? probably not as hard as if you expected no one to drop out.

theres more but im blank right now.

[zenmomma]

I speak English, some Spanish & some French... oh and I'm becoming more and more fluent in "The Queen's" English.

Back to something Dalya said about kids needing more stimulating environments... not sitting around taking notes like a microchip...

I have to agree with that completely. I was put into a class called PEAK (Pupils Excelling in Academic Knowledge) when I was in the 2nd grade. We spent 1/2 day away from regular classes each week doing logic puzzles, interactive studies of people/places/things, we were the first kids in school to work on computers and had all sorts of ACTIVE education. I loved it and I excelled at it.

This carried on through to 6th Grade as it was, then when I went to Jr High we were all put into AP classes. AP classes just went back to the same old style of learning via lectures, reading, taking notes & regurgitating information at a much accellerated rate. I failed miserably because I am the type of person who needs visual and hands on learning. I didn't understand why I couldn't keep up with all the other kids and I finally dropped out of AP. Even after that I struggled to squeak by with Bs in normal classes. I just don't cope well with lectures, notes, reading, regurgitating and standardised tests.

I don't know how schools are these days, but I do think more attention needs to be put on adapting education to learning styles.

[Dalya]

i dont think theres anything wrong with hating the current public school system. its shitty and it needs to change. but if youre in college studying to become a teacher and you believe everything your professor says without questioning it or waiting to see for yourself, youre an idiot anyway and probably shouldnt be a teacher. by the time youre getting youre getting your teaching certificate youre 22 right? time to stop taking iformation for granted and form your own opinions.

[mr_j]

the first and most obvious problem is that minority schools have poorer facilities than predominantly white schools. i dont think anyone will argue with me that this is the case 99% of the time. this immediately sends the message to students AND THEIR TEACHERS that this school is not as important, these students are not as important, and they dont deserve the propor facilities and tools for their education. so, right away, walking into school, you are set up for failure.

there were a series of Robin Hood programs in the 1990s that were meant to address this issue, to help slice up the pie a bit better, and i think the results from these programs showed that it didn't really matter whether or not the funding was there, poorer schools performed just as poorly even though they had more money to spend on their educational programs.

the second problem is low expectations. i've heard the expression a lot "students can rise or fall to expectations". if you set low expectations for a body of students, even the brighter students will fall to meet your expectations. the number one thing for a teacher and school board to do is to set high expectations, not just for the stupid tests but for attendance, class participation, percentage of graduates, percentage who will go on to college, etc. if you go into the year assuming 1/3 of your students will drop out, are you going to try very hard to keep them in school? probably not as hard as if you expected no one to drop out.

theres more but im blank right now.

which is the point i made at the beginning, and i think this is an issue that's society's problem/fault, not of education. learning has been devalued in society. it's not for a lack of educational opportunites, or having 'rich' schools or poor schools. it's a problem that's found outside of the classroom, and it's one that, unfortunately, is beyond the scope of educational reform.

[mr_j]

i dont think theres anything wrong with hating the current public school system. its shitty and it needs to change. but if youre in college studying to become a teacher and you believe everything your professor says without questioning it or waiting to see for yourself, youre an idiot anyway and probably shouldnt be a teacher. by the time youre getting youre getting your teaching certificate youre 22 right? time to stop taking iformation for granted and form your own opinions.

yes, but a professor is acting in the public trust, and the student does not come to the teacher with the notion that he's going to have to discredit everything he is taught. a professor is expected to share his expertise--not his prejudices. if a student learns these things it is because that is what his teacher taught him. the forming of opinions is one thing, but that comes after you're given what the professor teaches you. not before.

[Dalya]

well thats my major problem with the education system, amy. even small things like sitting at big round table (like in a conference room) instead of in rows, makes learning so much easier. anything "out of the ordinary" helps you remember and actually UNDERSTAND things instead of just memorizing the info, spewing it out for your test, and forgetting it. so anything like songs, dances, movies, games, having something to touch (remember how much easier it was to learn about frogs once you disected one?) ANYTHING besides just sitting and taking notes will help you learn. the more senses you appeal to, the more likely you are to remember it, and the more likely it is that a greater percentage of students will be able to remember it.

think about it. if youre a teacher and 30% of your students are auditory learners and 30% are visual learners and 30% need to touch something in order to learn (i forgot what the term is called) and 10% have different kinds of learning disabilities (ADD, dyslexia, etc)-- think about what percentage of your students will learn if you:

a) lecture and have them take notes (only the auditory learners will really do well)

b) lecture and present diagrams/visual aids (now auditory and visual, but still just over half the class is doing well)

c) lecture briefly and have them take notes, then pass out some sort of game, divide the class into teams, and play. here you are reaching the greatest percentage of students. even the students who miss out in the first section will pick up things during the game that they missed. plus you are making learning fun, the students forget they are learning-- this is when the most learning takes place (like getting into a good book).